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A conversation with Jim Carlen

The former USC coach talks about Spurrier, Elvis and his induction into the Texas Tech Hall of Honor

Former USC coach Jim Carlen shares a laugh with George Rogers

Former USC coach Jim Carlen shares a laugh with George Rogers, his star running back.

File photo/The State

Posted on 11.09.08
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Jim Carlen former USC coach

C. Aluka Berry/caberry@thestate.com/

Jim Carlen

About Jim Carlen

BORN: July 11, 1933

HOMETOWN: Cookeville, Tenn.

COLLEGE: Georgia Tech (1955)

RESIDENCES: Hilton Head Island and Columbia

BUSINESS: Carlen Investments, Hilton Head (since 1982); board of directors, Beaufort-Jasper Water and Sewer Authority (since 1990)

FAMILY: wife, Meredith; sons Jamie, Holt; daughters Mollianne, Melanie; 12 grandchildren

HEAD COACHING CAREER

West Virginia

25-13-3 (1966-69)

BEST SEASON: 10-1, 1969

WORST SEASON: 3-5-2, 1966

WINNING SEASONS: 3

Texas Tech

37-20-2 (1970-74)

BEST SEASON: 11-1, 1973

WORST SEASON: 4-7, 1971

WINNING SEASONS: 4

South Carolina

45-36-1 (1975-81)

BEST SEASON(S): 8-4, 1979, 1980

WORST SEASON: 5-7, 1977

WINNING SEASONS: 4

Even at age 75, Jim Carlen’s mind is sharp. And, as anyone who has dealt with the former USC football coach knows, he was never shy about speaking his mind.

In seven seasons (1975-81), Carlen had a 45-36-1 record, coached Heisman Trophy winner George Rogers and took the Gamecocks to three bowls. His blunt manner and sharp tongue often generated as many headlines as his teams, and he feuded with reporters, fans and even USC president James Holderman. That, as much as a 6-6 record in his final season, led to his firing in 1981.

Carlen made as many lifelong friends as enemies, though, and neither ever claimed he couldn’t coach. Carlen was recently inducted into the Hall of Honor at Texas Tech, where he coached from 1970-74 and was 37-20-2, including an 11-1 mark in 1973. He also coached four seasons (1966-69) at West Virginia.

In an interview with The State’s Bob Gillespie, Carlen discussed his career and those who have followed him, including Steve Spurrier, whom Carlen tried to recruit when he was an assistant coach at Georgia Tech.

QUESTION: Congratulations on being inducted into the Texas Tech Hall of Honor.

ANSWER: First, let me clear the air about this Hall of Fame stuff. If someone were to say to me, “Coach, we’re only honoring you,” I wouldn’t go, I wouldn’t drive across town. I do this because it gets (attention for) my coaches, who do most of the work, and my players, who did all the playing.

It was similar to when (Carlen was inducted into the S.C. Athletic Hall of Fame). I think a successful high school coach ought to be put in the state hall of fame; I don’t think a football coach at (South) Carolina ought to be in there. Put him in the USC Hall of Fame, which is where you did your work.

Q: Speaking of coaches, Texas Tech’s Mike Leach throws the ball all over, while your teams ran the ball and focused on defense more. How has the game changed in the 35 years since you were at Texas Tech?

A: Offensive linemen are allowed to hold now, in my opinion. It’s like wrestling; there are more takedowns on the line of scrimmage. In fact, they tell me they now put Vaseline under the armpits of the defensive linemen so they can’t grab their jerseys. That helps. But I saw the USC-LSU game, and it’s hard for five offensive linemen to block eight blitzing. I think the quarterback (Stephen Garcia) found that out, and LSU is ahead of USC physically.

In football, everybody is changing, but everybody’s coming back, too. If you look at Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, Appalachian State, they’re running the (option) offense I ran. George Rogers didn’t get the Heisman Trophy with us throwing the ball; Jeff Grantz was the best quarterback they’ve had here, but he did things I didn’t coach.

Q: What lured you to South Carolina in 1975?

A: My (parents) were getting older. I’d been at Georgia Tech for eight years ... then was at West Virginia from 1966-69, left there for Texas Tech. I felt like I needed to get closer to home.

I never went to a job that I didn’t feel like I did a good job, left them better than what I inherited. Nowadays, when a coach like (Alabama’s Nick Saban) is given a $32 million, eight-year contract ... I came here and they gave my wife and me two cars to use, but I made $76,000 as head coach AND athletics director. That’s pretty cheap.

Q: The USC team you inherited had Kevin Long and Clarence Williams, who both ran for 1,000 yards in 1975, and Jeff Grantz, who put up numbers that sound like they belong Florida’s Tim Tebow: 12 rushing touchdowns, 16 passing. When did you realize what you had?

A: I’d never been to South Carolina. I just came because it was closer to home. Tennessee and Georgia Tech were opportunities, but those weren’t available. But I knew players win games and coaches find players. And there were discipline (issues at USC). We felt like we were a weak program, a “me” program, not a “we” program.

I stayed on them. Jeff Grantz will tell you, I stayed on him. George Rogers ran early mornings for skipping classes, (but) George got a degree from USC, and to me that’s bigger than the Heisman Trophy and All-American. I mean that. If a youngster is treated good enough to graduate ... I’m not that smart, but I had the good people to do the coaching.

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Video from the interview

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Q: Why were you such a run-oriented coach?

A: At Texas Tech, we had a quarterback, Joe Barnes, who didn’t throw as well as the guy here (Garcia), but he ran the option well, tough runner, and we won. We won big with him. Someone said, “Does it bother you that you don’t throw enough?” I said, “Coach Dodd and coach Bryant convinced me only bad things can happen throwing the football.”

You didn’t see many teams throw back then. And I believed in the option. I can name five or six coaches now still running some of the option, and (they have) improved on it. If you were a defensive coach and didn’t have good defensive players, how would you improve your defense immediately? Keep the defense off the field. Very simple. I’m a simple coach.

Q: Where do you rank Grantz among USC quarterbacks?

A: Your newspaper ran a poll, and when someone called me, I said, “I will vote for the second-best player, because the first-place guy will get all the votes he needs.” He asked who I thought that was, and I said, “I don’t think, I know: Jeff Grantz.” He was in a league by himself. Jeff Grantz had a knack (for winning). He had good feet, he was tough, he could run, he could throw.

The Clemson game my first year here (a 56-20 USC win), late in the game I told him, “Jeff, I’m putting you in because I don’t have a backup I can play. What I want is you to give the ball to Kevin Long or Clarence Williams; don’t try to score, because we’ve got enough points.” So he goes out, and a second-team receiver tells him, “I believe I can beat the corner.” So Jeff fakes the dive, and he threw, and the youngster was 10 yards behind their defense. I apologized to the Clemson coaches for that.

Q: When you recruited Rogers, did you dream he would win a Heisman?

A: No. But Dennis Ford was a great offensive line coach here and an excellent recruiter. He went to (Duluth) Georgia and saw George, and then I came and watched George run, and I said, “That’s the kind of runner we need in our running attack,” (because) Clarence and Kevin were graduating.

The reason we got George Rogers, I told him, “Son, if you’re not going to class, don’t come here.” You know what he calls me today? Daddy. He does. George and I butted heads a lot, but when he won the Heisman, he said, “Can’t we charter a plane? My fullback and offensive line did all the playing.” He meant that sincerely.

Most people don’t realize George is the most kind, generous person and the best daddy ever.

Q: Even with wins over Georgia in 1978-79, beating Michigan on the road in 1980 was probably your most impressive win. Rogers says you told players before the game you would punch out Michigan coach Bo Schembechler if you had to.

A: (Laugh) The stadium up there is awful, 100,000-plus. Schembechler was one of my good friends, and he said, “I don’t know why we’re playing you.” That year we also played at Southern California; (Paul) Dietzel left us a good schedule.

I could tell with that many people that the kids were a little nervous. So I said, “Fellas, if you’re scared they’re going to attack you out there, I’ll clean Bo Schembechler’s clock.” I told Bo about that afterward and he said, “I’m not coming to Columbia to play; you already embarrassed us here.”

He said, “We’re the best team in the country, the best team we’ve had here, we’re going to the Rose Bowl, and you beat us.”

Q: What was your worst loss?

A: The game that hurt me the most to lose was Georgia over there (in 1980), and they won the national title, but we were as good as them. I played George too long in that game, even though he played extremely well.

Q: You recommended Bobby Bowden as your successor when you left West Virginia, so you know coaches. How do you rank the men who followed you at USC?

A: Joe Morrison went 10-2 in 1984, and I applaud him for that, (but) 18 of those 22 starters were kids who we redshirted — my coaches did most of that. I never met Joe Morrison; he called me once to ask about Clemson, but that was it.

Lou Holtz was one of my good friends, but he came here talking about what he did at Notre Dame. You’ve got to be with the players; I always wanted to know where they were. You’ve got to slam-dunk more discipline on players now than you used to have to. My players knew they meant so much to me, (but) they weren’t perfect.

Q: What about Spurrier? What’s your assessment of what he’s done here?

A: He’s an evasive type, but he has an agenda, he knows exactly what he’s doing. It’s like the throwing game: He comes in and he throws a zone pass, not a man pass. He went to Duke when the ACC was a basketball league, and he says he didn’t have a lot of players, but if he could score enough points, they couldn’t catch up.

Now the ACC has tried to become a football league, (adding) Florida State and Miami. That’s where the money is made in college sports; ask any AD.

Q: Can Spurrier get done at USC what people want?

A: I think people are saying Spurrier will outcoach anybody in the country; well, that’s not true. The guy that outcoaches the (other) guy is the who has players. At Florida, is (Urban Meyer) doing pretty good? His quarterback is a phenomenal player, but I wouldn’t let him run the ball that much. I don’t care how tough he is, as big as linemen are.

My point is, you don’t let him get hurt. You run him, but just enough. He has three little running backs who run like deer. He’s got a chance to win the national championship; didn’t he win it two years ago? Didn’t Spurrier win it (in 1996)? So it must not be just the coaches — players win games.

Steve’s in his fourth year now, and what doesn’t he have here? Enough players.

Q: Can he get enough players?

A: It depends. I think what he’s realizing now, he may be a good coach, but I don’t know how many (offensive) linemen they’re getting. You take (Georgia receiver A.J. Green), he’s just a freshman, and they say he’s one of the best receivers in America. How many offensive linemen come in and play well as a freshmen? Never. You recruit linemen, make the best ones defensive linemen; you take the next-best ones, make them offensive linemen, redshirt them — that’s what we did for the 1984 (USC) team, worked with them after practice 30 minutes every day.

I think USC has a chance to do well, but can they dominate Georgia and Florida? Tennessee has already been caught — losing the guy who went to Duke (David Cutcliffe) hurts them. He did a phenomenal job (at Tennessee). How’s he doing at Duke? That’s where coaching comes into play.

Q: What do you think of Garcia? Can he be Spurrier’s Grantz?

A: You’ve got to protect your quarterback. This young guy looks like he’s going to be a good one. He can run, and he can take punishment and looks like he’s got a good arm. Spurrier will do a heckuva job teaching him where to throw and how to throw.

Q: What do you think the future of USC football is going to be?

A: I like South Carolina. I like the people. They’re a little insecure because they felt all along they were going to get better (in football). Can Steve Spurrier correct this issue? Did Lou Holtz? Dietzel? Didn’t they all have good reputations coming in here? How did they leave here?

First thing, (fans) want to win the East Division. Then they want to go to Atlanta and win the championship. And then they want to win the national championship. Florida’s done it, Georgia’s done it, Tennessee’s done it. I’m not saying (USC) can’t, but that’s a real test. I applaud Spurrier; he says they can compete, but can you beat them? The coaches at Florida and Georgia have better chances to get better players.

What do I think will please USC people? They’re so frustrated and hungry, what you think is pleasing them, next year won’t please them. They want to be like Florida, Georgia, Alabama — that’s going to take a while, and you do it by getting better players. They say, “We can do it by outcoaching people” — ah, not many times. Players win games, and I knew that better than anyone.

Q: You had run-ins with media, with USC’s administrators during your stay. Any regrets?

A: First of all, I regret people thought I was hard-headed. I am; I was driven. But I’m fair. I’ll do anything to help anyone. I called (former USC president James) Holderman (recently) to tell him I forgive him for what he pulled here. He didn’t know what football was all about. What he enjoyed was money, and what did that get him into? Jail — twice in federal prison.

Back then I told him, “Dr. Holderman, you can do anything you want, but sign for it. I’m the AD; I’m accountable.” He said, “I’ll never do that,” and I said, “Well then, you’ll never get the money.” What does that mean? Does it mean I’m disloyal? I was protecting my program and the whole university. Sure enough, when I left, he got the money.

Some say he got rid of me because I was hard-headed, but he didn’t know me. That wasn’t his cup of tea; his was what he ended up doing.

Q: A little known fact: you were friends with both Willie Nelson and Elvis Presley. Care to explain those connections?

A: (Former Texas coach) Darrell Royal, bless his heart, was the real connection. I’m a country and western fan. Darrell also was a big fan, and they’d go to Trini Lopez’s place in Austin. I don’t drink and I like to go to bed by midnight, but I like to hear good music, so I got to know them. Then I played golf with Willie Nelson and the black singer who was in minor league baseball (Charlie Pride) — they were all there (in Austin).

Q: And Elvis?

A: When I was in Germany (while serving in the military), I knew Joe Baier, the pilot who I brought to South Carolina. Joe’s great friend was a pilot in Weisbaden, and that guy’s daughter (Priscella) married Elvis. So I knew the daughter of my friend’s friend, and Elvis and I would run into each other in Germany.

He and I became good friends because he was hung up on football and he was from Memphis (Carlen is a Cookeville, Tenn., native). In fact, when he was (performing) in Columbia, he sent me tickets. I told him, “I can’t go, I’ve got to make a high school speech,” and he said he’d send tickets for my children.

He was such a good fellow. He would fight you at the drop of a hat, but he was not a boisterous fellow, very humble. It’s sad how he died, from drugs and all that stuff. That was not him at all. He was a redneck from Mississippi who ended up in Memphis. I knew him extremely well.

I get interested in people, but I don’t judge what they are. You can find something wrong with everybody.

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